So much to go into, and too much to satisfy with just one comment, firstly do you see anywhere in the scriptures where the idea now so commonly taught especially amongst the many that Jesus was punished for our sins so nothing is required from us at all. In sharing the gospel with people many today say Jesus did everything and all is only imputed to you, justification, acceptance even the idea of true repentance is so neglected and it is never taught about all the precious powerful blood of Jesus and His inheritance imparted does into all those truly His sheep. When we tell others that salvation is by faith, do we then, quickly follow up by teaching the necessity of obedience? Many then immediately default into thinking automatically won't that just make them trust in their works? Yet I feared that unless I quickly followed up "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved" with teaching about how to live, they would think that if they would just believe, repentance obedience and lifestyle of how actually we are totally radically transformed and being reborn and made alive in the spirit and becoming living as new creations in Christ daily, counting the cost and no longer living for self but putting self to death being crucified with Christ would not matter.
And that is the huge problem is an inadequate presentation & sharing of the true gospel and of God's heavenly kingdom as beloved Christ Jesus himself taught it. Many have been taught and teach to present the gospel in a way that focuses on man's problem with God, and on how God "took his punishment," "freed him from guilt," and then "let him off the hook." And so then nothing at all is required or to be reciprocated from them.
The thorough understanding of the biblical gospel message and through via the spirit is this gospel emphasizes that Jesus is the King, that he has showed up and defeated Satan, that he has offered deliverance to the captives and sets them free from their bondages and being held captives to their sins---and that what you must do is repent and follow him to share & receive in his life into theirs, in entering into his kingdom, and in his destiny.
This message makes the transition from merely just believing on Jesus to living as a citizen of his kingdom quite natural. It does not set up a dichotomy between believing and obeying. Which actually is what believing in Jesus truly means.
Penal Substitution is at odds with the teaching of the original Christian faith about following and living the infilled life of the living Christ Jesus, not that we ever become God no, that Is a lie from the very devil himself, but in Christ we reflect and radiate shine forth the character and fruits of God's holy spirit as ambassadors representatives and emissaries of Gods heavenly kingdom, especially as described by Him & can be seen in the Sermon on the Mount. If Jesus really came to reveal God to us, and teach us to be like him in character, nature, faith, image and likeness then Jesus' entire life lived as a sacrificial crucified life and teachings describe what that means. If, however, God's character requires that he cannot forgive sin without justice being satisfied (and hence must pour out his wrath on Jesus), then he calls us in the gospels to be different in character from his own character.
The historic Christian teaching about suffering love does not harmonize well then, with this picture of God. And grad-ually assimilate into main-stream Protestantism teachings of traditions developed by fallible men of Luther & indeed Calvin respectively.
Penal Substitution has and does caused a split between salvation and a new transformed ethical life lived in Christ , a split that is absent in the Gospels. On the day of judgment when Jesus says to some,
'Depart from Me ... for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink',
Here Jesus shows no hint of a divide between salvation and ethics, or "faith and works done in and through Christ Jesus, not self works" How does this square with “For by grace you have been saved through faith... not of works, lest anyone should boast"?
The reason that Penal Substitution divorces salvation from the true life in Christ Jesus is because it is reductionistic. It tends to reduce man's problem to a pending punishment, and then offers an incorrect solution in which Jesus takes that punishment instead, taking away personal accountability and responsibility to live as enabled in Christ and how God requires.
Within large sectors of Christianity, there are so many unbiblical ideas taught and defended that have done great damage to the faith of Jesus Christ. Among these are the doctrines of cheap grace and unconditional eternal security, no matter what or how one lives. Certain teachings of Calvinism, and the common Protestant understanding of imputed righteousness, while not in themselves deadly, have also tended to lead the many people astray.
My hope is that all those truly in Christ we will glorify Almighty Creator God by rejoicing in his character grace & absolute truths all to and for His glory. And my hearts desire that we grow in understanding together and develop a deeper appreciation for beloved God, his purpose for the cosmos, and his amazing gracious gift to us, and not take such for granted, or as merely common but fully being able to teach to others the full inheritance bestowed upon us by the living Christ Jesus, how we can live each day with the realities of God's powerful presence & spirit His companionship and fellowship influencing us moment by moment.
We all know a little bit about justice and human feelings. No one feels justice has been done if an innocent person wants to take the punishment for someone who is guilty. No one finds that it is easier to forgive someone who has wronged us by taking out our wrath on someone else, especially not to the innocent.
That is not how forgiveness works. No one-except possibly very evil people— feels pleased if someone who is innocent is punished in the place of someone who is guilty. Yet that is what many have been attributing to God!
Here is another statement many may believe because have heard similar things all their life.
Now ask does this statement sound reasonable to you?
On the cross, Jesus endured the full weight of the wrath of God against sin. God punished him so that he could let us go free.
This statement has been made so often that few Christians even challenge it.
Instead, they just assume that it makes sense. I hope that many will see this statement is not only inaccurate but also unreasonable.
We should really care about this because the very character of God is at stake. The above statement about the satisfaction of God's wrath comes from what is known as the Penal Substitution Model of the Atonement. Many who see God as capricious or unreasonable find reinforcement for their feelings in this model. Many who look at God as an angry or inscrutable Father feel as they do because the natural tendencies of this model push them in that direction.
Often, people get the idea that God the Father is the one who is wrathful and vengeful toward us, but Jesus is the one on our side who intervenes. The penalty substitutionary model as often taught today does not align with the Scriptures, that it is not the historic view of the early body of Jesus Christ, and that it does not fit with our inherent understanding of right and justice.
Further, much error and heresy either flows from or relies on this model of penal substitution.
Today when many (especially Evangelicals Protestants & thousands of others whom identify as Christians) think of the gospel, the only understanding they have is based upon the Penal Substitution model. Many are unaware that there are other ways of understanding the gospel message and the finished work of Christ. Does that help at all?
Thank you for pulling that thread. You’re right. Seeing ourselves as citizens of His kingdom right now, today, changes everything. It’s not just a future hope. It’s a present orientation. It rewires our posture from waiting to engaging, from hoping for a better world to living as outposts of it.
That shift in perspective, from distant beneficiary to active citizen, is subtle. But it changes the heart completely. It moves us from simply being "forgiven" to being "deployed".
And you’ve named the quiet sorrow I feel. Many have been handed the keys to the kingdom but still choose to live in the vestibule. They have the pardon but have never heard the King’s commission. They are forgiven, but not yet followers. It’s a truncated grace. It saddens me because they are missing the whole point, the relationship, the purpose, the joy of walking with Him.
Your clarification is vital. It’s the difference between a transaction and a transformation. Thank you for stating it so clearly.
Well done Shashue. I've encountered this discussion like yourself with both Timothy and Desert Sage. I'm grateful for your insights and your walk with the Lord. Think we are going to be very blessed through this year, but not without a battle or two along the way. We are in great company.
I'm cross posting your stack with my commentary attached. Thanks for all you do!
I’m genuinely glad someone is willing to think deeply about sin and sacrifice rather than simply inherit conclusions because they’ve been repeated for generations. Thank you for sharing how you’re working through this.
One thought I keep returning to: human nature has always been quick to avoid accountability. From the beginning, blame-shifting came naturally—Adam and Eve reached for excuses almost immediately. If given the option, humanity would gladly accept someone else absorbing the consequences of its rebellion.
This is where I struggle with common atonement frameworks. They not only satisfy our desire to escape responsibility, but they also fail to meaningfully deter sin. I have difficulty reconciling that with the nature of God as a loving Father. No good father corrects by punishing another while allowing his child to bypass the necessary learning, transformation, and restoration that responsibility produces.
"but they also fail to meaningfully deter sin". This part is here is what's cutting me most deeply at the moment. In terms of how this understanding effects my personal walk in the faith.
The motivating source of my transformation goes from a struggle to not repeat it to one of healing the damaged caused by sin.
In an operational framework it's like having a staff of a hundred people in a department whose sole job is fixing broken things.
Compared to having a staff of hundred people working a process with the sole intention of never doing any damage.
In the real world, we have both, maintenance folks (keep things from breaking) and repair folks (fix broken things).
How does God’s statement to Cain in Genesis 4 shape the way a person understands their responsibility and authority over sin—and what kind of mindset does Hebrews 12 produce about endurance and resistance?
Penal substitution was not understood by the early disciples Christians, Jesus' atonement was.
Can you expand upon that? 🙏🏿
So much to go into, and too much to satisfy with just one comment, firstly do you see anywhere in the scriptures where the idea now so commonly taught especially amongst the many that Jesus was punished for our sins so nothing is required from us at all. In sharing the gospel with people many today say Jesus did everything and all is only imputed to you, justification, acceptance even the idea of true repentance is so neglected and it is never taught about all the precious powerful blood of Jesus and His inheritance imparted does into all those truly His sheep. When we tell others that salvation is by faith, do we then, quickly follow up by teaching the necessity of obedience? Many then immediately default into thinking automatically won't that just make them trust in their works? Yet I feared that unless I quickly followed up "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved" with teaching about how to live, they would think that if they would just believe, repentance obedience and lifestyle of how actually we are totally radically transformed and being reborn and made alive in the spirit and becoming living as new creations in Christ daily, counting the cost and no longer living for self but putting self to death being crucified with Christ would not matter.
And that is the huge problem is an inadequate presentation & sharing of the true gospel and of God's heavenly kingdom as beloved Christ Jesus himself taught it. Many have been taught and teach to present the gospel in a way that focuses on man's problem with God, and on how God "took his punishment," "freed him from guilt," and then "let him off the hook." And so then nothing at all is required or to be reciprocated from them.
The thorough understanding of the biblical gospel message and through via the spirit is this gospel emphasizes that Jesus is the King, that he has showed up and defeated Satan, that he has offered deliverance to the captives and sets them free from their bondages and being held captives to their sins---and that what you must do is repent and follow him to share & receive in his life into theirs, in entering into his kingdom, and in his destiny.
This message makes the transition from merely just believing on Jesus to living as a citizen of his kingdom quite natural. It does not set up a dichotomy between believing and obeying. Which actually is what believing in Jesus truly means.
Penal Substitution is at odds with the teaching of the original Christian faith about following and living the infilled life of the living Christ Jesus, not that we ever become God no, that Is a lie from the very devil himself, but in Christ we reflect and radiate shine forth the character and fruits of God's holy spirit as ambassadors representatives and emissaries of Gods heavenly kingdom, especially as described by Him & can be seen in the Sermon on the Mount. If Jesus really came to reveal God to us, and teach us to be like him in character, nature, faith, image and likeness then Jesus' entire life lived as a sacrificial crucified life and teachings describe what that means. If, however, God's character requires that he cannot forgive sin without justice being satisfied (and hence must pour out his wrath on Jesus), then he calls us in the gospels to be different in character from his own character.
The historic Christian teaching about suffering love does not harmonize well then, with this picture of God. And grad-ually assimilate into main-stream Protestantism teachings of traditions developed by fallible men of Luther & indeed Calvin respectively.
Penal Substitution has and does caused a split between salvation and a new transformed ethical life lived in Christ , a split that is absent in the Gospels. On the day of judgment when Jesus says to some,
'Depart from Me ... for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink',
Here Jesus shows no hint of a divide between salvation and ethics, or "faith and works done in and through Christ Jesus, not self works" How does this square with “For by grace you have been saved through faith... not of works, lest anyone should boast"?
The reason that Penal Substitution divorces salvation from the true life in Christ Jesus is because it is reductionistic. It tends to reduce man's problem to a pending punishment, and then offers an incorrect solution in which Jesus takes that punishment instead, taking away personal accountability and responsibility to live as enabled in Christ and how God requires.
Within large sectors of Christianity, there are so many unbiblical ideas taught and defended that have done great damage to the faith of Jesus Christ. Among these are the doctrines of cheap grace and unconditional eternal security, no matter what or how one lives. Certain teachings of Calvinism, and the common Protestant understanding of imputed righteousness, while not in themselves deadly, have also tended to lead the many people astray.
My hope is that all those truly in Christ we will glorify Almighty Creator God by rejoicing in his character grace & absolute truths all to and for His glory. And my hearts desire that we grow in understanding together and develop a deeper appreciation for beloved God, his purpose for the cosmos, and his amazing gracious gift to us, and not take such for granted, or as merely common but fully being able to teach to others the full inheritance bestowed upon us by the living Christ Jesus, how we can live each day with the realities of God's powerful presence & spirit His companionship and fellowship influencing us moment by moment.
We all know a little bit about justice and human feelings. No one feels justice has been done if an innocent person wants to take the punishment for someone who is guilty. No one finds that it is easier to forgive someone who has wronged us by taking out our wrath on someone else, especially not to the innocent.
That is not how forgiveness works. No one-except possibly very evil people— feels pleased if someone who is innocent is punished in the place of someone who is guilty. Yet that is what many have been attributing to God!
Here is another statement many may believe because have heard similar things all their life.
Now ask does this statement sound reasonable to you?
On the cross, Jesus endured the full weight of the wrath of God against sin. God punished him so that he could let us go free.
This statement has been made so often that few Christians even challenge it.
Instead, they just assume that it makes sense. I hope that many will see this statement is not only inaccurate but also unreasonable.
We should really care about this because the very character of God is at stake. The above statement about the satisfaction of God's wrath comes from what is known as the Penal Substitution Model of the Atonement. Many who see God as capricious or unreasonable find reinforcement for their feelings in this model. Many who look at God as an angry or inscrutable Father feel as they do because the natural tendencies of this model push them in that direction.
Often, people get the idea that God the Father is the one who is wrathful and vengeful toward us, but Jesus is the one on our side who intervenes. The penalty substitutionary model as often taught today does not align with the Scriptures, that it is not the historic view of the early body of Jesus Christ, and that it does not fit with our inherent understanding of right and justice.
Further, much error and heresy either flows from or relies on this model of penal substitution.
Today when many (especially Evangelicals Protestants & thousands of others whom identify as Christians) think of the gospel, the only understanding they have is based upon the Penal Substitution model. Many are unaware that there are other ways of understanding the gospel message and the finished work of Christ. Does that help at all?
Thank you for pulling that thread. You’re right. Seeing ourselves as citizens of His kingdom right now, today, changes everything. It’s not just a future hope. It’s a present orientation. It rewires our posture from waiting to engaging, from hoping for a better world to living as outposts of it.
That shift in perspective, from distant beneficiary to active citizen, is subtle. But it changes the heart completely. It moves us from simply being "forgiven" to being "deployed".
And you’ve named the quiet sorrow I feel. Many have been handed the keys to the kingdom but still choose to live in the vestibule. They have the pardon but have never heard the King’s commission. They are forgiven, but not yet followers. It’s a truncated grace. It saddens me because they are missing the whole point, the relationship, the purpose, the joy of walking with Him.
Your clarification is vital. It’s the difference between a transaction and a transformation. Thank you for stating it so clearly.
Well done Shashue. I've encountered this discussion like yourself with both Timothy and Desert Sage. I'm grateful for your insights and your walk with the Lord. Think we are going to be very blessed through this year, but not without a battle or two along the way. We are in great company.
I'm cross posting your stack with my commentary attached. Thanks for all you do!
Thank you my friend. Peace and blessings and may the Holy Spirit continue to guide you on this walk.
💙🙏🏿✝🕊
I’m genuinely glad someone is willing to think deeply about sin and sacrifice rather than simply inherit conclusions because they’ve been repeated for generations. Thank you for sharing how you’re working through this.
One thought I keep returning to: human nature has always been quick to avoid accountability. From the beginning, blame-shifting came naturally—Adam and Eve reached for excuses almost immediately. If given the option, humanity would gladly accept someone else absorbing the consequences of its rebellion.
This is where I struggle with common atonement frameworks. They not only satisfy our desire to escape responsibility, but they also fail to meaningfully deter sin. I have difficulty reconciling that with the nature of God as a loving Father. No good father corrects by punishing another while allowing his child to bypass the necessary learning, transformation, and restoration that responsibility produces.
"but they also fail to meaningfully deter sin". This part is here is what's cutting me most deeply at the moment. In terms of how this understanding effects my personal walk in the faith.
The motivating source of my transformation goes from a struggle to not repeat it to one of healing the damaged caused by sin.
In an operational framework it's like having a staff of a hundred people in a department whose sole job is fixing broken things.
Compared to having a staff of hundred people working a process with the sole intention of never doing any damage.
In the real world, we have both, maintenance folks (keep things from breaking) and repair folks (fix broken things).
Still thinking through it in my own weird way.
Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it.
And to your earlier point, re: blame shifting. Yes that seems to be our default, initial human posture on things.
How does God’s statement to Cain in Genesis 4 shape the way a person understands their responsibility and authority over sin—and what kind of mindset does Hebrews 12 produce about endurance and resistance?